來喔，上原文 Dear NSF: Could you explain how this NSF certified mark should be looked like? Is there any official regulation for some specific product type? Or a authorized manufacturer could choose their own mark varying from a simple NSF to a circled NSF with certified standard? changing color from blue to black? I've seen marks with these two colors with the same "Independently Certified" around NSF circle, separated with or without two dots. Did they represent the same meaning? I am confused by a salesman form Amway claimed that eSpring water treatment system is the only system certified for the entire system(standard 42/53/55), rest of manufacturers certified merely for functioning compartments. Most importantly, he claimed that by whole system certification, they were authorized to bear different type of certified mark, which is distinguishable from other manufacturers. Is it true or false? if it's true, what does it look like? May I have a picture? ============================================================================ Hello XXX, There are certification marks that are used by all manufacturers who are certified to NSF International standards and certified by NSF International. There are color restrictions and size recommendations for the certification marks. The certification mark by itself does not represent different certification; but rather the list of standards that the product has been certified against as well as the list of contaminants it will reduce is a way to differentiate a product’s certification. In regard to what you stated below, here is our listings page where you can see which products are certified to which standards: http://info.nsf.org/Certified/DWTU/ There are various products that have certification to more than one standard (i.e., 42, 53, and 401). We verify what the manufacturer is claiming their product will reduce. If you forward me what the dealer is saying in an email, I can send to our quality team for their review. ============================================================================ Dear NSF: Thanks for replying. Here's his expression: eSpring system is the only product (more precisely, product line.) being certified for entire machine to standard 43/53/55/401/P477 rather than just functioning component. For example, some water purifier is certified to standard 53 only for filter part, but not for the entire machine as eSpring does. Since eSpring is certified for entire machine, the product line is authorized to bear unique NSF mark differing from other manufacturers. To be clear: 1.Is the NSF mark altered in any way between "whole machine" and "single component" so that I could tell the differences by taking one glance of the certified mark? Attached file 1 demonstrates what he called "unique certified mark for entire machine". I prefer he's bluffing. Is it legit to use TM? or R is preferred? https://imgur.com/FLHv9OJ.jpg 2. "whole machine" and "single component" Are they really certified and documented in different ways? Does it really matter if I sent the whole machine or component for certification? The salesman's expression sounds like their certification to standard 53 is way more better than other manufacturers' and documented in a unique way. I thought NSF testifies the water purifying components in the most realistic practice-run the whole machine, and testify the contaminants reduction, material safety and integrity. Am I correct? or NSF only testifies the component in some way isolated? 3.Just to be sure, in attached file 2, all these certified mark are legit, right? And they don't represent any standard or what they called "whole machine certification". The only information is that products with these marks are certified by NSF, and manufacturers are free to choose any one of them as label. Am I correct? https://imgur.com/Eaji0f7.jpg =========================================================================== Hi XXX, There are component certifications that we use to verify the components in contact with drinking water are safe to use. These fall under standard 42 and/or 61. They would state as such “certified for material and structural integrity only” whereas the performance of a product is verified as a whole system is under 42, 53, 401, etc. The mark is the same with the exception of the box underneath has different text clarifying the product’s certification. The certification mark has a ® with it for all marks including the “ independently certified” version. If I can be of further assistance, please let me know. Thank you for your message, ============================================================================ 這個齁，NSF列表有寫益之源可以濾鉛和汞，我覺得這個就可以不用爭了。 好喔，我又寫了一封信去啊，而且還幫你翻中文。 Dear NSF: What does the circle "independently certified " represent? The salesman insists that the circle around stands for whole system certification. 標誌外面那一圈independently certified是甚麼意思? 直銷商堅持那是全機認證 才有的圈。 ======================================================================== It is an older certification mark that does not represent a different type of certification (whole system versus component). The text box underneath should explain what the certification represents. 那是舊版的認證標誌，不代表認證不同(全機vs零部件)，底下的文字方塊可以解釋代表 哪項認證。 ======================================================================== 真的hen~棒。 我是想說這張圖https://imgur.com/BVDsXQ2.jpg 我們常見到淨水器宣稱取得NSF認證，但在NSF的認證中，其實分為「全機」與「零件」認 證。 這兩者最大的區別，在於獲得NSF的「零件」，僅能代表該零件(濾心)所使用的材質 ，符合NSF的標準， 但卻無法代表該零件安裝於機體後的安全性，或者能有效濾除水中的 汙染物。僅有獲得NSF全機認證的淨水器，才能同時符合材料安全、結構完整及有效濾除 三大要件，確保顧客所飲用的水是純淨且安全無虞。 根據NSF官方的信，只要有效能相關的認證，比如說53裡面可以濾掉幾項，就是整個系統 下去驗，所以基本上53就一定是驗全機。 NSF的懶人包說明42跟53https://goo.gl/bppGRH 這也跟信件裡吻合，如果只驗零件的部分是歸在42或61底下，但是42也有效能的部分是 驗全機。 所以會分全機vs零件的，只有42，但是中文安麗官網不寫清楚，會讓消費者以為所有NSF 認證都有分全機vs零件。尤其是濾心，會有人拿整個濾水器的心臟只驗42零件不驗效能的 嗎? 真的有的話那這廠商是棒槌啊，所以我又合理假設這段描述是針對那些只要驗42零件 就可以拿NSF標誌出來騙的不肖廠商。但是消費者不會去研究這些眉角啊，又要被你們鋪 天蓋地洗全機五項，那不就是營造一種"只有我家驗全機好棒棒"的氛圍，你要說他違法也 沒有阿都是事實啊，只是換個說法讓你觀感不同啊。這，就是大家最討厭的直銷話術，一 般人不研究一下真的很容易被拐，美國官方網站就沒有搞這麼多花樣，再加一堆直銷商的 "個人行為"，更讓我覺得在台灣直銷會臭真的是活該夕鶴。 啊對了，NSF標誌的那個TM可以問一下啦，NSF官方說法是用®。 我戰的內容其實跟安麗官方也沒甚麼關係啊，都是在戰底下直銷商那些莫名其妙的"個人" 說詞啊，只是個體戶被戳就會氣噗噗覺得我在戳安麗官方。這種東西寄給官方有甚麼用? 難道官方還能把護航大將軍趕出安麗? --

※ 發信站: 批踢踢實業坊(ptt.cc), 來自: 1.169.200.220 ※ 文章網址: https://webptt.com/m.aspx?n=bbs/DirectSales/M.1512576858.A.DCF.html 這就是典型自己被戳到卻以為我在戳安麗公司的氣噗噗直銷商。 ※ 編輯: d200190 (114.136.66.89), 12/07/2017 14:13:59 我覺得比較像小孩吵輸了只會氣噗噗嗆我爸是連戰他超有錢www 你的邏輯就是因為美國爸爸公司很賺所以你們亂講甚麼都對啊，是這樣嗎www 而且說沒意義，我的用意就是不想有消費者被唬爛，你不站在消費者的角度當然就無意義 只會覺得"你們好壞壞喔都攻擊直銷捏"。 然後我是不知道只有PTT ID是要怎麼跟安麗檢舉啦，難道安麗比警察還厲害可以調IP、ID 抓是誰亂講? 而且齁，你們的招式大概是 1.攻擊其他家產品，像是RO水沒有礦物質啦、好幾道濾心很弱啦、沒有5項認證所以5>1我 好棒棒。 2.再不然就是用偽科學、偽知識，比如說喝酸性水傷身體啦、天然維生素比萃取維生素有 效啦，登上PDR等於藥品啦、全機認證標誌有圈圈啦，或者像是#1K6UMt7O裡面你說洗腎 是清洗腎臟這種http://i.imgur.com/u4N3wpJ.jpg的東西。 3.我們總公司很賺，所以你們輸了。 大概就是這老三樣，偶爾才會出現真的在誇大產品的護航。 不要說只敢PO這裡啦，要玩就玩大一點。 貴公司 直銷編號XXXXXXXXXX 直銷商姓名XXX (PTT ID sohuanjin)發表以下言論 聲稱NSF飲用水相關認證只有不到五項。 聲稱NSF標誌外圈即是全機認證，沒有外圈則無全機認證。經本人詢問NSF客服(附上信件) 確認並無此事，純屬捏造。 貴公司 直銷編號XXXXXXXXXX 直銷商姓名XXX (PTT ID saokie)發表以下言論 刻意誤導消費者林杰樑醫師因喝RO水而死。 貴公司 直銷編號XXXXXXXXXX 直銷商姓名XXX (PTT ID Sinreigensou)發表以下言論 宣稱益之源淨水器具完全殺菌功能。 宣稱益之源淨水器與RO淨水器具有同等效能。 直銷編號跟實名貼一貼啊，我不只寄去安麗還可以寄去公平會啊，只敢貼這裡? 要玩就來 玩。 ※ gigi030507:轉錄至看板 E-appliance 12/07 22:53 ※ 編輯: d200190 (1.169.200.220), 12/08/2017 00:13:23 尼砍砍，這位老兄根本沉浸在自己的小劇場裡面啊，我覺得齁，閱讀能力還是要加強 一點，都說那麼多次我是在打"不肖直銷商的唬爛話"，不是為打哪一家公司。這種就 是轉移焦點啦，想把仇恨拉去全體直銷一起氣噗噗，可是正派經營不唬爛的又怎麼會 被我戳到，講事實講道理是有甚麼好攻擊的，都嘛是在打那些唬爛話，想要扣我攻擊 安麗的帽子也高明一點。 這種邏輯都不清楚的話還是不要出來啦，不過反正護來護去就那幾招啊，XXX名人教授 背書(而且還會無視教授的邏輯只抓自己想聽的)，作了多少年，年營收多少，會員多 少，然後這一切瞎七八的東西就可以取代科學或數據的事實，我想一般人聽到這種邏 輯應該白眼已經翻到不知道哪去了啦，好像我們在討論Mercedes跟Porsche兩千萬以內 哪台車0-100km/hr加速最快，一般人數據看一看三分鐘結案，有的人卻會去比哪家公 司歷史久誰營業額高誰賣了多少台或是誰拿了甚麼歐洲金品獎，如果有人提出質疑， 還會氣噗噗地說不然你去告啊，這種齁，我覺得從思考邏輯上就是零交集，還是不要 理他好了。 ※ 編輯: d200190 (1.169.200.220), 12/08/2017 22:23:07