作者: LaurenceS (Laurence of Formosa) 看板: Christianity 标题: [心得] 东正教的往生观 时间: Tue Jan 31 13:06:11 2017 东正教的人论是二元论，并且认为两者皆美好无一是恶 (除了召会以及从其分裂出来的异端之外 我没有见过其他教会的人说三元论的) ============================================= 呵呵，看Laurence说的，好像鄙派是异端的温床似的。不过看起来，Laurence不太清楚基 本上灵恩派也都是三元论的。 有监於亲爱的Laurence缺乏对於基督教教义史的认识，小弟在此根据毛爷爷的：‘为人民 服务“的精神，为Laurence弟兄提供以下原始资料，希望Laurence弟兄参考： ===三元论的希腊教父===== 《游斯丁遗失着作片断--论复活（FRAGMENTS OF THE LOST WORK OF JUSTIN ON THE RESURRECTION）》的第10章—身体得救，并将复活（CHAP. X.--THE BODY SAVED, AND WILL THEREFORE RISE） The resurrection is a resurrection of the flesh which died. For the spirit dies not; the soul is in the body, and without a soul it cannot live. The body, when the soul forsakes it, is not. For the body is the house of the soul; and the soul the house of the spirit. These three, in all those who cherish a sincere hope and unquestioning faith in God, will be saved. 复活是复活已死亡的肉体。因为灵是不死的；魂在身体里面，没有魂身体不能活。身体， 当魂抛弃它时，就死亡了。因为身体是魂的家；魂是灵的家。这在那些热切的为在神里的 盼望和不可挑战的信仰欢呼之人中的三者，将一同得救。 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_I/JUSTIN_MARTYR/On_the_Resurrection,_Fragments/Chapter_X. 里昂的爱任纽 《反异端》5.9.1 …the complete man is composed – flesh,soul,and spirit. One of these does indeed preserve and fashion [the man] -- this is the spirit; while as to another it is united and formed – that is the flesh; then [comes] that which is between these two – that is the soul, which sometimes indeed, when it follows the spirit, is raised up by it, but sometimes, it sympathizes with the flesh, and falls into carnal lusts. Those then, as many as they be, who have not that which saves and forms [us] into life [eternal], shall be, and be called, [mere] flesh and blood; for these are they who have not the Spirit of God in themselves. Wherefore man of this stamp are spoken of by the Lord as ‘dead’; for, says He, ‘Let the dead bury their dead,’because they have not the Spirit which quicken them. 2. On the other hand, as many as fear God and trust in His Son’s advent, and who through faith do establish the Spirit of God in their heart – such men as these shall be properly called both ‘ pure’ and ‘spiritual,’and ‘those living to God,’because they possess the Spirit of the Father, who purifies man, and raises him up to the life of God. (FNF01: The Apostolic Fathers with Justin martyr and Irenaeus) 完整的人包含肉体，魂，和灵三部分。三者中维持并塑造人者，乃是灵；此与另一者联结 成形，乃是肉体；介乎灵与肉体之间者为魂; 它有时随从灵，而为灵所提高，但有时体贴 肉体，而堕落于肉身的情欲。所以，凡没有那拯救而形成生命之灵的人，就被称为〔血肉 之人〕因为他们里面没有神的灵。所以这些人被主称为〔死人〕。他说:〔让死人埋葬他 们的死人〕( 路9:60) ，因为他们没有那叫人活的灵。2. 反之，凡是敬畏神，又相信他 的儿子降世，因信有神的灵在心里的人，乃得称为清洁、属灵、向神活着的人，因为他们 有父的灵，这灵洁净人，并将人提高到神的生命. (基督教历代名着集成尼西亚前期教父选集, 基督教文艺出版社) 亚历山大的革利免 《THE INSTRUCTOR: BOOK II（导师：2卷）》 Accordingly, as wine is blended with water,[9] so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality. And the mixture of both--of the water and of the Word--is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul. For the divine mixture, man, the Father's will has mystically compounded by the Spirit and the Word. For, in truth, the spirit is joined to the soul, which is inspired by it; and the flesh, by reason of which the Word became flesh, to the Word. 同样的，圣灵与人就如同酒与水混合。而这个酒与水的混合体，滋养着信心；同时，另一 个部分，圣灵，（将人） 带入不朽。水和道的混合就叫做圣餐，带着荣耀的恩典，使得 那些带着信心领受的，能得到身体和魂的圣别。因为这个神圣的混合，人，与父的旨意奥 秘的借着圣灵与话结合为一。因为根据真理，灵与魂结合，从它得到灵感；而肉体，也因 为道成肉身的缘故，归于道。 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_Post-Nicene_Fathers:_Series_II/Volume_V/Apologetic_Works/The_Great_Catechism/Summary 尼撒的贵格利 《护教学：大辩护文（APOLOGETIC: THE GREAT CATECHISM）》中的‘圣餐（THE SACRAMENTS） … It is shown how the Deity gives life from water. In human generation, even without prayer, He gives life from a small beginning. In a higher generation He transforms matter, not into soul, but into spirit … 。。。它告诉我们神如何把生命借由水赐给（我们）。在人的世代，甚至在没有祷告（的 情况下），他（神）从一个小的开始把生命（赐予我们）。在一个较高的世代，他把物质 （指饼和杯）变化入我们的灵里，而不是魂里。。。。 《哲学着作：关于人的造作（PHILOSOPHICAL WORKS: THE TREATISE "ON THE MAKING OF MAN"）》 … so that man consists of these three: as we are taught the like thing by the apostle in what he says to the Ephesians(8), praying for them that the complete grace of their "body and soul and spirit" may be preserved at the coming of the Lord; using, the word "body" for the nutritive part, and denoting the sensitive by the word "soul," and the intellectual by "spirit." 。。。所以人有这三部分：如同我们由以弗所书从使徒领受的，使徒为着他们“体，魂和 灵”完整的恩典祷告，在主再来的时候可以保守他们；用“体”代表富于营养的部分，用 “魂”指明感觉的部分，智慧的部分则用“灵”。。。 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_Post-Nicene_Fathers:_Series_II/Volume_V/Philosophical_Works/The_Making_of_Man/On_the_Making_of_Man/Chapter_9 CREATE A FREE WEBSITE 《希伯来书解经5-11卷（2-6章）（HOMILIES OF ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM ON THE EPISTLE TO THE HEBREWS, HOMILIES V TO IX (CHAPTERS 2 TO 6)）》 2.] In the next place, lest hearing [the words] "after the same [example]," thou shouldest think that the punishment is the same, hear what he adds; "For the Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, and pierceth even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." In these words he shows that He, the Word of God, wrought the former things also, and lives, and has not been quenched.(1) 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。 "Piercing," he says, "even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit." What is this? He hinted at something more fearful. Either that He divides the spirit from the soul, or that He pierces even through them disembodied, not as a sword through bodies only. Here he shows, that the soul also is punished, and that it thoroughly searches out the most inward things, piercing wholly through the whole man. 接下来，免得听到（这些话）“学那（不信从的样子）”，你要想想惩罚是一样的，听听 他所说的；“神的道是活泼的，是有功效的，比一切两刃的剑更快，甚至魂与灵，骨节与 骨髓，都能刺入、剖开，连心中的思念和主意都能辨明。”这些话表明祂，神的道，精炼 前述的几样东西，他是活泼的，是不会熄灭的。 。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。。 “刺入”，他说，“甚至灵与魂也能剖开”。这是什么呢？他暗示一件令人敬畏的事。甚 至他（指神的话）能够把灵从魂分开，或他能够刺穿、分解它们（灵与魂），不只是像剑 切入身体一样。这里，他（保罗）指明，魂也被惩罚，和他（神的话）全面的搜寻出人里 面最深处的事，把全人完全的切开。 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_PostNicene_Fathers:_Series_I/Volume_XIV/On_the_Epistle_to_the_Hebrews/Homily_7 此处共提供了游斯丁，爱任纽，亚历山大的革利免，尼撒的贵格利和金嘴区梭多模的原始 资料。贵格利对於东正教的【能力神学（Theology of Energy）】的重要性，我就不赘言 了。 置於：『东正教是否是二元论？】这个问题，请Laurence参考Lossky的《东正教神学简介 》最後一章，Lossky讲的很清楚，东正教同时接受三元论和二元论。至於Lossky在神学界 的地位，也请Laurence问问您的神甫。 ====三元论的拉丁教父====== 驳斥马吉安 特土良 图片 然而，若你在复活的时候除去了身体，你就会化为无有，这个问题会产生什麽结果呢？同 样的，「虽然它种下了一个天然的身体（natural body），在复活的时候却会得到一个属 灵的身体。」如今，虽然灵与生命天然的原理都拥有各自的身体，以至於「天然的身体能 够正确的被当作是魂的意思，「属灵的身体」就是灵，然而，我们没有理由去怀疑使徒所 说的，魂在复活的时候要成为灵，但是那个身体（就是与魂一同出生，并通过魂为持其生 命的部分，当被称做是动物的（或天然的））将会成为属灵的，因为它将会通过圣灵被提 升到永远的生命中。 If, however, you remove the body from the resurrection which you submitted to the dissolution, what becomes of the diversity in the issue? Likewise, “ although it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.” Now, although the natural principle of life and the spirit have each a body proper to itself, so that the “natural body” may fairly be taken to signify the soul, and “the spiritual body” the spirit, yet that is no reason for supposing the apostle to say that the soul is to become spirit in the resurrection, but that the body (which, as being born along with the soul, and as retaining its life by means of the soul, admits of being called animal (or natural)) will become spiritual, since it rises through the Spirit to an eternal life. Tertullian, The Five Books Against Marcion 5.10, http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ante-Nicene_Fathers/Volume_III/Anti-Marcion/The_Five_Books_Against_Marcion/Book_V/X 奥古斯丁 《信仰和信经》第十章23段 " And inasmuch as there are three things of which man consists—namely, spirit, soul , and body—which again are spoken of as two, because frequently the soul is named along with the spirit; for a certain rational portion of the same, of which beasts are devoid, is called spirit: the principal part in us is the spirit; next, the life whereby we are united with the body is called the soul ; finally, the body itself, as it is visible, is the last part in us. " (Faith and the Creed 10:23, AD 393) 『人是由三部分所构成的，就是：灵、魂和身体。这三者有时被简化为二，因为魂经常跟 灵被一起被提及；因为人里那个有理性的部分，是兽类所无的，称为灵：我们里面最主要 的部分就是灵，其次，我们与身体联合 的生命就是魂；末后，就是身体，那可看见的， 也是我们的最后一部分。』（《信仰和信经》第十章23段（Of Faith and the Creed 10:23）） （http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1304.htm） 耶柔米 《圣耶柔米信件LXXV—LXXXIII（THE LETTERS OF ST. JEROME: LETTERS LXXV TO LXXXIII）》 … The Lord of nature Himself says in the gospel:--"out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies."(1) It is clear from the testimony of another book that "the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth," (2) and that the soul wavers between the works of the flesh and of the spirit enumerated by the apostle,(3) 。。。。自然的主自己在福音书中说过：“因为从心里发出恶念、凶杀、奸淫、淫乱、偷 窃、假见证和谤讟。”（太15：19）另一本书也清楚的见证“人从小时心里怀着恶念” （ 创世记8:21），使徒也见证魂是在肉体和灵的工作间摇摆。（罗马7章末）。。。 http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Nicene_and_Post-Nicene_Fathers:_Series_II/Volume_VI/The_Letters_of_St._Jerome/Letter_79 路加福音1:46 马丁路得 让我们按次序看看这些字的意思。第一个是「我魂」(和合本译「我心」)。圣经将人分为 三部分，如保罗在帖前5:23所说的。…人的本质包括三部分—灵、魂、体。第一部分—灵 —是人最高，最深入，及最尊贵的部分。人藉着它可以明白那些不能理解、不能看见，永 恒不变的事。简单来说，灵就是信心及神语话的居所。 [魂]的本质只能理解那些人理性可以知道及明白的那些事。事实上，理性是这个居所的光 ，除非灵—一个更大的信心之光—管理这个理性的光，它就必然出错，因为它在处理属灵 的事上是软弱无力的。 Martin Luther, Luther's Works , ed., Jaroslar Pelikan (St. Louis: Concordia, 1956), 21:303. 让我们从圣经中看一个例证。根据摩西的指示，会幕是分为三个部分。第一部分称为至圣 所；它是神的居所，里面是没有光的。第二部分称为圣所；这里有七个灯臂及七个灯盏的 灯台。第三部分称为外院；它是开放在白天及阳光之下。从会幕我们看到一个基督徒的描 绘。他的灵就是至圣所，神就是住在这个信心的幽暗中；这里没有光，因为他是在相信一 些看不到、感觉不到，以及理解不到的事情。他的魂是圣所，当中有七个灯盏，代表各种 的理由、分析、知识及对那些肉眼可见、关乎肉身之事的认知。他的身体是那外院，是对 外开放的，别人亦藉此看到他的工作及生活方式。 Ibid., p. 304. 拉丁教父方面，我提供了特土良，奥古斯丁，耶柔米和路德。事实上，路德还代表德语世 界。奥古斯丁对於西方基督教的影响，也不需赘言。 ====东正教的三元论==== THE ORTHODOX WAY BISHOP WARE “I pray to God that your whole spirit and soul and body may be preserved blameless until the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thess. 5:23). Here St. Paul mentions the three elements or aspects that constitute the human person. While distinct, these aspects are strictly interdependent; man is an integral unity, not the sum total of separable parts. First, there is the body, “dust from the ground” (Gen. 2:7), the physical or material aspect of man’s nature. Secondly, there is the soul, the life-force that vivifies and animates the body, causing it to be not just a lump of matter, but something that grows and moves, that feels and perceives. Animals also posses a soul, and so perhaps do plants. But in man’s case the soul is endowed with consciousness; it is a rational soul, possessing the capacity for abstract thought, and the ability to advance by discursive argument form premises to a conclusion. These powers are present in animals, if at all, only to a very limited degree. Thirdly, there is the spirit, the “breath” from God (see Gen. 2:7), which the animals lack. It is important to distinguish “Spirit,” with an initial capital, from “spirit” with a small s. The created spirit of man is not to be identified with the uncreated or Holy Spirit of God, the third person of the Trinity; yet the two are intimately connected, for it is through his spirit that man apprehends God and enters into communion with him. With his soul (psyche) man engages in scientific or philosophical inquiry, analyzing the data of his sense-experience by means of the discursive reason. With his spirit (pneuma), which is sometimes termed nous or spiritual intellect, he understands eternal truth about God or about the logoi or inner essences of created things, not through deductive reasoning, but by direct apprehension or spiritual perception -by a kind of intuition that St. Isaac the Syrian calls “simple cognition.” The spirit or spiritual intellect is thus distinct from man’s reasoning powers and his aesthetic emotions, and superior to both of them. Because man has a rational soul and a spiritual intellect, he possesses the power of self-determination and of moral freedom, that is to say, the sense of good and evil, and the ability to choose between them. Where the animals act by instinct, man is capable of making a free and conscious decision. Sometimes the Fathers adopt not a tripartite but a twofold scheme, describing man simply as a unity of body and soul; in that case they treat the spirit or intellect as the highest aspect of the soul. But the threefold scheme of body, soul and spirit is more precise and more illuminating, particularly in our own age when the soul and the spirit are often confused, and when most people are not even aware that they possess a spiritual intellect. The culture and educational system of the contemporary West are based almost exclusively upon the training of the reasoning brain and, to a lesser degree, of the aesthetic emotions. Most of us have forgotten that we are not only brain and will, senses and feelings; we are also spirit. Modern man has for the most part lost touch with the truest and highest aspect of himself; and the result of this inward alienation can be seen all too plainly in his restlessness, his lack of identity and his loss of hope. (The Orthodox Way, pgs. 47-48) Timothy Ware主教是东正教的翘楚和代表。他也把人分成三个部分。 ====华人基督教==== 关于三一神与信徒（上） 贾玉铭 二、关于三一神与信徒 信徒的由来：是神从创世前拣选的，是耶稣宝血救赎的，是圣灵所印证的。 “怜悯、恩慈”是神的品性，“谦虚、温柔”是主的样式，“忍耐”是圣灵的果子。 当初三一 神照自己样式所造的人，也是三而一的人，有灵有魂有体。人既有灵，即有灵 智灵觉，可与灵界交通。人有魂，就有自知自觉。人有体，就有感觉，而有视、听、尝、 嗅、触五种感觉。 属灵与属肉体 林献羔 前 言 读经：哥林多前书2：14－3：5，加拉太书6：1. 人是三元的：灵、魂、体。基督徒只有属肉体与属灵两种。 陈终道 按圣经所记，灵，绝不就是灵魂（灵魂可与生命通用），把灵当作灵魂，是圣经翻译的问 题。圣经说「神的灵造我」（伯33:4）可以解作神的灵魂造我吗？又说「你发出你的灵， 他们便受造」（诗104:30）可以说是神发出祂的灵魂，人便受造吗？又说「人里头有灵， 全能者的气使人有聪明」（伯32:8）。灵（Spirit）与灵魂（Soul）是两回事，凭甚麽可 把灵，灵魂，身体，三者去其一？希伯来书第四章12节和帖撒罗尼迦前书第五章23节可改 为二元论吗？ 于中旻、陈终道等：《对再批斗倪柝声的平议》(香港：金灯台出版社，2004)，页64。 此处请注意，贾玉铭本身是长老会的，应该是改革宗的二元论。 =================================== 根据上面的原始资料，基督教历史2000年中，三元论遍布在基督教的各个角落，包括 Laurence所属的【东正教】（希望Laurence弟兄这次不会开始否认叙利亚东正教会是东正 教了！^_____^） 至於Laurence弟兄所：”除了召会以及【从其分裂出来的异端之外】我没有见过其他教会 的人说三元论的“。很明显的，古大公教会，东正教，天主教，路德会和改革宗都不是【 从其（地方召会）分裂出来的异端之外】。希望Laurence弟兄能够根据基督徒的良心和道 德，收回上述不实的指控/言论。 （当然，我虽然不认为地方召会比您懂希腊文--虽然您的希腊文功底是值得怀疑的---但 是，游斯丁，爱任纽，亚历山大的革利免，尼撒的贵格利和金嘴区梭多模这几位涵盖将近 6000年的大师，他们的希腊文肯定比您【强】吧？呵呵！） 谢谢合作！ 最後，您宣称： 我有接受比我更懂希腊语的人教导教义 他们负责看懂传统然後教授给我 不知游斯丁，爱任纽，亚历山大的革利免，尼撒的贵格利和金嘴区梭多模这几位的希腊文是否比您好？如果是，您是否【愿意】接受他们的教导？ --

※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc), 来自: 118.100.255.233 ※ 文章网址: https://webptt.com/cn.aspx?n=bbs/Christianity/M.1486628787.A.71A.html ※ 编辑: df31 (118.100.255.233), 02/09/2017 16:30:11 → simonwu20923: 三元论 後期改成二元论 因为现在没人读原始资料了。:P 大陆章雪富/石敏敏翻译的，奥古斯丁的《论灵魂的起源》的译者前言也说过，翻译完後， 只能承认奥古斯丁是三元论。可以在以下网页买到： https://world.taobao.com/item/544716282974.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.BuM40V#detail 不好意思。请问您是Laurence吗？。。。。应该不是吧？！ 本人本文是针对Laurence某些错误的观点而发。请不要【模糊主题】。如果您 对鄙会人论不满，欢迎另开一贴讨论。谢谢合作。 ============ 以下是东正教的补充资料。摘录自罗斯基（Lossky）着，杨德友译的《东正教神学导论 (OrthodoxTheology： An Introduction)》147页： 希腊教会的教父这样描述人的本性：或者是理知，灵魂和肉体的三部分的合成，或者是 灵魂与肉体的合一。三分法和二分法拥护者简单区别一般也不过是使用其中一个属於而已 。二分法在nous中看到的是理性的灵魂的更高一级的能力，人正是凭藉这能力进入与上帝 的合一。 ------------- 根据Lossky的当然，我也希望Laurence能够为自己所谓：“东正教是二元论”的说法提出 有力的证据。 这里是“基督教【研究】”版，而不是“基督教【我认为】”版。希望我们的论点都能够 根据‘学术精神’，提出佐证。而不是拿道听途说，或我认为作为自己论证的基础。 期待Laurence的澄清。 ※ 编辑: df31 (118.100.255.233), 02/09/2017 18:56:24 ※ 编辑: df31 (118.100.255.233), 02/09/2017 18:58:56 他都公开否定亚他那修过，这些人算老几？:P 不过，我只是想让大家看看【学术】和【非学术】间的对比。 ※ 编辑: df31 (118.100.255.233), 02/09/2017 20:02:53