作者ryannieh (new)
看板Military
标题Re: [闲聊] 老共的新战机
时间Thu Jan 13 02:54:34 2011
http://tinyurl.com/4bm4zu7
J-20 - The Dragon Gets Airborne
Posted by Bill Sweetman at 1/11/2011 7:27 AM CST
A lot of people have weighed in so far on what the
appearance of the J-20 prototype (or prototypes, as some
pictures suggest) means for Chinese and US strategy.
(很多人在讨论J20原型机对中美战略的影响)
What's fascinating is that, faced with the same kind of
information gap that we dealt with in the Cold War, the debate
has fallen into the same mold, pitting the hawks against the
skeptics. This time around, however, a lot of the people
arguing that the J-20 is a propaganda exercise, a preliminary
prototype at best, are on the inside of the Pentagon.
(令人讶异的是我们面临了和冷战时期一样的资讯鸿沟:讨论
陷入了鹰派和怀疑论者的论战。但这一次,很多怀疑论者是在
五角大厦这一边:他们怀疑J20只是宣传的幌子)
If you wanted to be really, really cynical about this, you would
note that a certain white-haired gentleman in the Pentagon
is on record as saying that China won't have an operational
stealth aircraft before 2020, and that public disagreement
with said gentleman has (on occasion) turned out to be
sub-optimal from a career-development standpoint.
(如果你很机车的话,盖兹可以算上一个这样的。他说2020年前中国
不会有投入服役的的匿踪机。这对他的官运有伤啊!)
However, belief that the J-20 is a long way off is also based
on comparison with recent US program performance - and
although this may produce the right answer, it will do so for
the wrong reasons.
(但是,认为中国在这方面还有很长的路要走的想法,虽然不
一定是错的,却可能是基於错误的理由:拿美国近来相关计画
的时间来推论中国也要那麽多时间。)
When it comes to timing, the right answer for now starts with
admitting that we don't know the answer. We have no good
track record for the pace of development in China because it
is not that long since China's economy started to take off, and
not that long since the Maoist doctrine of the PLA - favoring
numbers and politics over technology - gave way to a major
program of modernization. One generation of Chinese
development - represented by the J-10/10B, JF-17 and J-11B
doth not a trend make.
(要知道正确的答案,我们得先承认我们不知道答案。中
国经济才起飞没多少年,整个制度现代化的历程没有多
入。一世代的发展很难让人对趋势做出结论。)
The key pointers to the timing at this point are mostly out of
sight from the West, because they are items that can be
simulated or tested on the ground. They include progress
with active electronically scanned array radar, passive
electronic surveillance systems and (as often mentioned)
propulsion. Blog photos do not tell us very much about
that kind of hardware.
(网上的照片很难告诉我们实际的情况,尤其是关於AESA或
电子侦查或推进系统之类可以在地面实验或模拟的科技)
Still less do they say much about the other essential
element of a stealth aircraft, the complex sensor fusion
and threat avoidance software that allows it to track
targets with minimal transmissions while flying a precise
path around planned and pop-up threats.
(同样难以知道的还包括资料融合以及能同时进行电磁讯号管
理和精确飞行计画的任务管理软体)
It is probably a safe assessment that the J-20 is the first
Chinese stealth aircraft (unless it has been preceded by
another, covert demonstrator), so it will be a learning tool
as well as a prototype in its own right. Almost regardless
of the date at which it first enters service, its capabilities
will evolve as the threat does.
(可以很安全地说,J20是中国首种匿踪机(除非还有别的外
面不知道的实验机存在),它会是个原型机和了解相关科技的平
台。无论它何时投入服役,最後它的威胁会和它的能力一同增
加)
And do not forget the other X-factor: China's
unprecedented access to foreign technical data via
cyberespionage, data that can be widely disseminated
without putting the intelligence system itself at risk.
(更不用提中国还有一项利器:中国的网路窃秘行动)
As for the aircraft itself: start with the size. Capability has
been favored over low unit cost. And even with the
in-development 33,000-pound-thrust WS-15 it may have
a lower thrust-to-weight ratio than many of its
contemporaries. Relative to Typhoon or Rafale, the wing
appears more highly loaded and more sharply swept,
favoring speed rather than ultimate agility.
(关於这飞机,先从它的尺寸谈起。即使用上了发展中的,
33000磅(?)推力的WS15,推重比仍相对於台风和飙风不足。
其翼型显示高翼负荷,较有利於速度而非敏捷性)
In LO terms, if this is truly a case of WYSIWYG, we are
looking at a modified version of the F-22/F-35 "bowtie"
signature pattern - actually a sort of Wild Bill Hickock
"string tie" with the dangling strings being the rear sector.
(关於低可视度,如果真的看到什麽就是什麽,那麽它的讯号
图谱是一个类似於F22/35的「蝴蝶结」形──事实上是拖着
一堆尾巴的蝴蝶结形)
What is interesting about this is the ATF history, where
the stealth requirement started along those lines. But
Lockheed and Northrop promised the full bowtie with
very low rear signatures, with no performance or cost
penalty, and the requirement was changed. Whether that
was really a smart idea, I don't know.
(在ATF发展的历史中,类似的设计也出现过。但LM和诺斯
若普提出完全的、不需成本或性能牺牲的蝴蝶结设计,最後设
计需求也提高至该水平。J20的设计是不是一个聪明的决定
呢?我不知道。)
What this suggests is that the Chinese expect to use this
aircraft in circumstances where it can disengage, turn
and run - maintaining engagement control, in short.
(这样的设计暗示了J20设计的作战环境是可以脱离战斗并转
身离开的情况)
This isn't surprising. While the J-20's proportions may be
reminiscent of the F-111, it is unlikely to have the same
mission (penetrating strike). The PLA, from the antiship
ballistic missile (ASBM) through air-launched cruise
missiles on the 1950s-technology H-6 bomber to its Type
022 missile boats, seems happy to leave the last run to
the target to the missile. Also, for the time being, the PLA
is not looking at having to fight through an integrated air
defense system and fight its way out again.
(这并不让人意外。J20的尺寸或许像F111,但它不太可能被
拿来执行同样的穿透打击任务。众多的历史经验显示PLA不介
意让飞弹来跑最後一程。并且,目前PLA并没有要穿透IADS
再杀出血路来的需求)
What the J-20 should do best is go fast, at high altitude,
over a decent range - which leads to my guess is that this
aircraft is primarily air-to-air, designed to cause the US
really big problems with non-survivable air assets –
tankers and ISR. Defending them against a rapidly
developing attack by aircraft with a reduced frontal RCS
would not be easy.
(J20应该最适合高空大速长程的作战任务。我猜测其主要为
攻击加油机或电战/预警机的空对空任务。要防卫这样的攻击
很困难)
Range, relative positioning and initiative are the key. With
a long unrefueled range and useful sustained supersonic
flight (just how good it will be depends on engine data we
don't have), the J-20 could hold high-value air assets
too far from China to be of much use. It doesn't have to
be able to mix it one-for-one with the F-22: there are not
enough F-22s to defend everything at Pacific distances.
(航程、相对位置及计划为这样任务的作战关键。以其长航程
和超巡能力,J20可以迫使高价值空中目标远离中国而无法发
挥作用。中国甚至不需要太多这样的飞机,因为并没有足够的
F22来保卫整个太平洋战区。)
The long-range P-38 Lightning could not close-combat a
Zero, but then it didn't have to - and its pilots also learned
very quickly that its level and climb speed advantage
permitted them to control the engagement.
(这就像P38对抗零式的策略:P38没办法和零式近战,但它
可以用它的速度和爬升率优势来控制交战的时机。)
Another longer-term possibility for the J-20 is a "baby
Backfire" to threaten Aegis ships, another vital and
limited asset, with an air launched, supersonic
sea-skimmer missile - and you don't have to sink them,
just use dispersed kinetic weapons or an EMP warhead
to put the antennas out of service.
(另一个较长期才会实现的可能性是把J20当迷你逆火来对抗
神盾舰。它可以发射超音速掠海反舰飞弹,而且用不着非要击
沉神盾舰──用散布的动能或EMP弹头来瘫痪其雷达天线就
行。)
Both these missions fit with the anti-access/area denial
(A2AD) theme that runs through a lot of PLA planning,
including medium-range missile development. US
freedom of operation inside the "second island chain"
around China - running from Japan south to Guam and
West Papua and encompassing the Philippine and China
seas - depends on bases such as Andersen in Guam
and Kadena in Japan, on tankers, airborne ISR and on
carrier air power, and those assets increasingly support
one another.
(这两种任务都符合解放军一贯的反进入/区域拒止战略。美
国的军事行动自由依赖第二岛链上的基地、加油机、电战/预
警机和航舰兵力。它们彼此愈来愈相互依赖。
That's where an operational J-20 - whenever it appears –
will generate options for the PLA and problems for its
adversaries, and that is the figure of merit for any
deterrent system.
(这是当J20投入服役,无论何时,PLA所会增加的作战选择
和它的对手所要面对的问题。这无疑地造成了威慑。)
--
※ 发信站: 批踢踢实业坊(ptt.cc)
◆ From: 96.238.154.155
1F:推 QuentinHu :这篇很不错 175.181.226.31 01/13 03:44
2F:→ QuentinHu :有分析到作战状况跟背景环境还有战术 175.181.226.31 01/13 03:45
3F:推 QuentinHu :虽然我还是觉得硬干关岛 很难... 175.181.226.31 01/13 03:52
4F:→ QuentinHu :硬干要加上加油机还有配合机群联战 175.181.226.31 01/13 03:52
5F:→ QuentinHu :老美有防卫 很难炸到关岛没作战能力 175.181.226.31 01/13 03:58
6F:→ midas82539 :他提的点是第一岛链下的预警和加油机122.116.180.181 01/13 05:16
7F:推 abc0 :不错 128.138.65.216 01/13 06:01
8F:推 roxinnccu :妙,谈到打预警机就不会想到用飞弹 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:14
9F:→ roxinnccu :跑最後一程了,差别在哪咧XD 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:15
10F:→ ryannieh :人家又没说是用机炮打…你想那去了 96.238.154.155 01/13 11:17
11F:推 roxinnccu :所以当人家的高价值目标没护航? 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:19
12F:→ roxinnccu :那段的论证很奇怪呀,美方是没有 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:20
13F:→ roxinnccu :足够的22保护全太平洋,但绝对有足够 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:20
14F:→ roxinnccu :的能力保护高价值目标,治本之道, 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:21
15F:→ roxinnccu :还是到艾尔门多夫跟安德森去炸全家吧 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:22
16F:→ roxinnccu :或者有能力的话,西卡姆也炸炸 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:23
17F:→ ryannieh :护航也得要看得见且速度够快才能把对 96.238.154.155 01/13 11:34
18F:→ ryannieh :方挡在够远的距离外 96.238.154.155 01/13 11:35
19F:推 notmuchmoney:与F-22无关吧 威胁还是主要建立在低 163.25.118.140 01/13 11:36
20F:推 roxinnccu :所以你要跟F-22比看不见跟速度够快? 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:37
21F:→ notmuchmoney:可侦测性上 163.25.118.140 01/13 11:38
22F:推 roxinnccu :当然不是说『增加对手麻烦』无价值 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:39
23F:→ roxinnccu :从来给敌人多困扰就是很重要的事 114.43.117.251 01/13 11:46
24F:→ ryannieh :他不就都说了F22的数量不够了 96.238.154.155 01/13 12:22
25F:→ alienpanda :安啦中国只是一个非民主第三世界国家 68.144.84.69 01/13 12:51
26F:→ ryannieh :的确,让中国因为自身泡沫和贪污倒掉 96.238.154.155 01/13 12:55
27F:→ ryannieh :的确是消除中国这个反人类存在的最好 96.238.154.155 01/13 12:56
28F:→ ryannieh :方法。不过在那之前,我们在先处理 96.238.154.155 01/13 12:57
29F:→ ryannieh :要先处理现有的威胁!(茶) 96.238.154.155 01/13 12:58
30F:→ tony1007 :楼上是有病喔,十三亿人不是活好好的 122.123.66.59 01/13 22:24
31F:推 gs1 :13e人活的好好 科科118.167.136.235 01/14 10:30